KÖNİ: They are now open to the public, aren't they?

PERINCEK: Certainly, they started to classify the documents in the 1990s, and gradually opened them. I've been studying there for seven years. There are tens of thousands of documents related to the issue. If we make a general assessment before we go into individual examples, we come across three basic conclusions. The first one is that the events that happened in Eastern Anatolia during and after World War I cannot be described as genocide. This is the first definite conclusion we reach. The second conclusion is that these events are not genocide, but reciprocal killings. Both Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Ziya Gökalp have put forth this definition. Similarly, Soviet statesmen, representatives and Orientalists share this opinion. The third conclusion is important in that tsarist Russia and the imperialist West have incited and used the Dashnaks against Turkey to divide and colonize Anatolia by provoking these reciprocal killings. They are responsible of the reciprocal killings, and Turkey has waged a rightful war against them.

We can summarize the three conclusions as such.

If we need to give examples on these conclusions, for instance, Mdivani was the representative of Transcaucasia in Soviet Russia. He sends a telegram to Stalin saying ”Turks also lost a lot of people against the Armenians. We can never expect them to make concessions for Armenians.” That’s how he warns Moscow on the issue.

Another important document is a report written by the Soviet People’s Commissariat of Foreign Affairs, which corresponds to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to the Politburo, which was the highest central authority, emphasizing that Muslims are in majority in the region regarded as Turkish Armenia.

Mehmet Perincek

The reports also emphasizes that a coalition to be made with Dashnaks would bring nothing but provocation and corruption. There is also a note made by Stalin in his own handwriting, under a document or rather a letter which he later sent to Lenin. In that note, he says “Giving Mush, Van and Bitlis to the Armenians is an imperialist demand. Muslims are in majority in the region and such provocative and stupid demands cannot be our demands.”

Stalin also sent a note from Baku to Chicherin who was the People’s Commissar of Foreign Affairs.

Baku is also important as it is a region where incidents took place, and close to Eastern Anatolia. He says “The agents of the Allied Powers are exaggerating Turkey’s campaign in Transcaucasia, take it easy.”

As you know, the events that are regarded as genocide today includes the period between 1915 and 1923.

In those years, Stalin says that Turkey’s campaign to Caucasia was exaggerated by the agents of the Allied Powers, and tells the foreign office to keep calm.

Another striking document is a telegram sent to Stalin by Ionissian who was Secretary of the Central Committee of the Armenian Communist Party. He says “Nationalist demands and desires of the Armenian bourgeoisie are responsible of the pain Armenians suffered, and we have to establish good relations with the Ankara government to put a stop to them.”

So, an Armenian official personally had accused the Dashnaks of being responsible for the pains suffered.

Stalin made a similar note in another document. He says “Armenians have been victimized by the Allied Powers which incited them to attack Turkey.”

Another striking document demonstrates the Dashnak terror.

The following statement takes place in a document signed by Mdivani and Nerimanov, the Secretary-General of the Azerbaijani Communist Party:

“About ten villages have been destroyed by the Dashnaks. Dashnaks have slain the Muslim villagers massively and in an organized manner.”

This statement is not made by our people. It is the actual statement of Soviet officials.

It says “More than 2000 Armenians have found places to shelter in Azerbaijan. The rest are hiding in the mountains.”

The rest is important. It says “The locals are defending themselves single-handedly against the Dashnak government, and they only trust their own forces and the Turkish army in this war.”

This is striking as well. Again, an ultimatum given to the Dashnak Armenians by the Azerbaijani Revolutionary Committee says “This war against treacherous and cruel Dashnaks. Dashnaks want to subserviate the people of Naxchivan at gunpoint.”

The Armenian historian Vartanian wrote a book entitled, "The History of the Armenian Movement," where he instructed:

"Ottoman Armenians were completely free in terms of traditions, religion, literature and language compared to those of the Empire of Russia."

KÖNİ: The same situation came about after the Cyprus operation. The Greek intelligence supported the Armenian operations particularly after 1974. So, the Orthodox structure has been in mutual support all along. One part was successful with the support of the British because they were out of Anatolia. The other part caused trouble in an area inaccessible for Turks and disseminated the pain and the emotional dimension of the events, via the Church. Are there any archived documents related to the events of the pre-1915 period?

PERINCEK: Certainly. One of the most striking ones is related to an Armenian congress held in Tbilisi in 1915. In 1915, Dashnaks organized a congress for all Armenians in Tbilisi. It must be April 1915.

Here, the Dashnak representative of the military wing makes a speech. He says, “the Russian government gave us this much money at the beginning of the war. The mission of the Turkish Armenians was to revolt in the hinterland thus creating chaos and anarchy.”

I’m emphasizing this part because these are his exact words:

“And the mission of the Transcaucasian Armenians is to establish voluntary units to make way for the Russian armies.”

He says “We got this much money to carry out this mission, so we have to do it.”

So there were two missions to be carried out. One was to weaken the Ottomans by revolting in the hinterland.. which is a confession; and the other was to act as a battering ram for the Russian army, by establishing voluntary units. Shortly after this speech the Van uprising broke out. Yes, the famous Van uprising.

Boryan’s assessment on the issue is important. He says “Dashnaks have now accomplished their mission as servants to the tsarist Russia.” The Armenian historian Boryan says this.

I must emphasize that Boryan is declared a traitor today by Armenian nationalists, due to the book he published in 1929. He’s not alive now but he is still being attacked.

After saying that they have accomplished the mission as servants, Boryan emphasized something very important. I think the essence of the Armenian question lies in this statement of Boryan. He says, “It is obvious that when a mass of ten thousand people revolt against the state behind the military front, the idea of state entails the state rule and statesmen to take responsible precautions to necessary defense.”

He says there is a mass of ten thousand people revolting, and the Ottoman state would obviously take precautions in self-defense.

The following phrase should be emphasized as well. Boryan says “I must remind the following principle, keeping in mind that there is an important mission to accomplish, which necessitates to search and find opportunities to put down the uprising: The end justifies the means.”

That is, there is an attack against the state. The means used to defend the state are justifiable, which was the relocations they now regard as genocide. He says it was a justifiable means and puts forth the Dashnak documents.

He says Dashnaks made these speeches and maintained such correspondence to accomplish their mission to revolt, and to act as a battering ram or servant.

In return, the Ottoman state took necessary precautions for its self-defense.

He says it was their duty to take those measures.

He doesn’t say they could have taken measures or not. He says, “If this is a state they have to do it, and they have all the right to defend themselves.”

(Holdwater note: Other estimates of the Armenian fighters at Van. 10,000 appears to have been at the low end.)

KÖNİ: I'd like to make a point. Tsarist Russia has executed pogroms against the Jews, claiming that they didn’t put up a good fight. There were no revolts (by the Jews) or anything. (The Russians) just came and massacred them. Why don’t the Jews seek revenge against Tsarist Russia, whereas Armenians are so eager to revenge on Turkey, with the support of the West?

PERINCEK: Today?

KÖNİ: Yes.

PERINCEK: As we have seen in the Soviet documents I've mentioned, the Armenian question belongs neither to Armenians, nor to Turks. The Armenian question is actually an issue created to weaken Turkey. As they used the Armenians to reach the point to sign and implement the Treaty of Sèvres, they are putting pressure on Turkey with this issue.

Actually, it’s neither the Armenians in Turkey, nor the Armenians in Armenia. It’s the Western diplomacy as it was in 1915 and 1920s. It’s interesting what Wolfowitz said when our deputies went there about a month ago. He said “These (genocide resolution) bills will keep coming to the Senate.”

He said, “If you do this about the base in İncirlik and that about the seminary in Heybeliada, and cooperate with us against Iran and Syria, we will not ratify these bills. But if you take action otherwise ee will ratify these bills.”

So, all this reveal that the Armenian question or the genocide allegations are not issues to reveal historical facts. They are completely political issues like they were in the past.

Paul Wolfowitz served as  Secretary of Defense during the  first George W. Bush term. Here  he's licking his comb, from  "Fahrenheit 911."

Wolfowitz did not say, “Let’s study the issue, open the archives, examine the documents and accept or reject the genocide according to the facts.” He said “Your attitude will determine whether there was a genocide or not.”

That is, they are trying to corner and weaken Turkey again, like they did in Cyprus and the Aegean questions, or the events experienced in Eastern Anatolia, this time using the Armenian question as a package to create a foundation to realize the Great Middle East Project. The Great Middle East Project can only be implemented by weakening and finally eliminating the national state of Turkey, so the Armenian question is brought before Turkey again.

It does not arise from the anger or hatred of Armenians against Turkey. They use the hatred. You had a Turkish Armenian guest last week on the program. He revealed how the Armenians were used very well. The same “hatred” is used today.

The priest in question is almost surely Johannes Lepsius.

KÖNİ: Horrible. I asked this question because Germany, which was our ally in World War I, accuses us depending on the writings of a Protestant German priest, which say so many Armenians were killed here and there. That is, they incriminate Turks based on the allegations made by the priests who acted as supporting forces in the churches where the weapons were hidden. That’s how biased they are.

Don’t you think Armenians have read those documents?

PERINCEK: Armenians may have read them. But Armenians have the Dashnak documents at hand, which are the best sources to reveal the issue.

KÖNİ: Are they opened?

PERINCEK: No, they’re kept in Russia, which has some of them and a part of them are opened. But it is said that an important part was smuggled to Europe. But all the Dashnak documents are like confessions. As I've mentioned before, they say they had to do and were actually doing certain things to accomplish their mission. What could Turkey have done against that?

Boryan replies to the question. He says they had to take precautions to defend the state and they did.

German priests, British generals and officers, American missionaries accuse us of massacring the Armenians, but Irandust, another Soviet historian published a book in 1929. It is important for the West that accuses us today as well. He draws attention to the Dashnak massacres that occurred in Cilicia — that is, the Adana and Marash region — and says, “Terror regime was applied in the occupied regions. The gendarme units comprised of Dashnaks formed by the French engaged in massive murders against the Turkish population. They seriously brought forth the Great Armenia project, which contained Cilicia and the eastern provinces of Turkey, extending from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.

Armenian bands slaughtered all the villages one by one and implemented the program to physically annihilate the Turkish population consciously, completely under the leadership of the occupational forces.”

The emphasis is that the French imperialists have consciously used Dashnaks to annihilate the Turkish population. It was not the hatred of the Dashnaks. He says it was executed consciously and according to a program, under the protection of the French. Shouldn’t you take precautions against that?

Those priests are accusing Turkey. The present Western diplomacy, the American Senate, or certain “intellectuals” accuse Turkey of genocide. But Soviet historians reveal the issue clearly. There are tens or hundreds of similar examples. Gurko-Kryajin wrote a book in 1925 titled “Near East and States.” In his book he recounts the massacres against Turks in the Transcaucasia region, Eastern Anatolia, and Adana and its vicinity, by mentioning the names of the villages.

And these are not written by Turkish historians. They are not Ottoman documents either. They are statements made by Soviet officials, in their reports and works.

KÖNİ: Our brief time is over, Mr. Mehmet Perinçek. Thank you for the information you’ve given us. The question is gradually coming into light. I wish you a good day. Hope to see you again in another program.

Outside Reading:

Mehmet Perincek has prepared a nice round-up entitled "The Armenian Issue in the Russian State Archives," which may be accessed at the "Turkish Armenians" site.